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Joloke
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PostSubject: Help needed Sills Rust the Bangernomics way?   Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:46 am

Hi

I am continuing to chip away (quite literally) at my current project my 94 VW Caravelle that I am hoping to convert to a camper but alas when de-rusting the sills some small holes appeared :Cry2: 

The rest seems solid though there is obviously surface rust inside the section :Cry2: 

Id like to repair this as a semi permanent repair but don't really want to weld at this stage if I don't have to?

From what I can make out all the strength is in the Chassis rails themselves I am just wondering if the cab sills are more cosmetic rather than a load bearing structure?

I cant weld and don't really want to spend loads at this stage but neither do I want to just fill the hole with with just filler Suspect 

Its been suggested I cut out the hole a bit as its quite small and just fibreglass a patch in by inserting it inside the sill cavity with fibreglass paste around its edge and pulling it flush to the inside surface and holding it until it sets then filling and painting from the front?

The questions I have are

I obviously then seal rust inside the then enclosed section has anybody successfully coated any hidden areas with rust converter?

Can it be sprayed in? Is there a sprayable rust convertor?

The strength in the chassis seems to be between the Chassis Rails,Cross members, and inner sills and the out seems to be a cosmetic cover more than anything,am I right?

Ive seen pics of these Vans with the outer sills removed and the rust is always confined just to the outer sills as I think the inner are more protected and heavier gauge scratch 

Any advice would be most welcome as I want to keep this cheap but still carry out a solid as rust free as possible semi permanent repair

Thoughts????

Thanks

Jodie Smile

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edlithgow
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PostSubject: Re: Help needed Sills Rust the Bangernomics way?   Sat Nov 02, 2013 4:56 am

I'd spray inside the sills with motor oil, thinned enough with white spirit, kerosene or diesel to make it sprayable.

Diesel smells the worst and stings the eyes badly if you don't protect them, but you already have some diesel. White spirit will wash off bitumen-based underseal, but it evaporates so successive sprays will build up the oil content.

Kerosene is a good compromise

Thinned oil stays liquid and will tend to soak in to rust. Waxoyl doesn't.

I doubt rust converter is going to be effective sprayed on thick rust.
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edlithgow
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PostSubject: Re: Help needed Sills Rust the Bangernomics way?   Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:59 am

Re your patch, I'm unclear as to your objective.

If you think its an MOT fail, and you're trying to fool the inspector, then fair enough.

In that case I'd say don't use filler, which has relatively poor adhesion and adsorbs moisture,  so will tend to encourage rust in an area you already know is prone to it.

I've used ferrocement (finely reinforced concrete shell used in boat construction) for semi-structural reinforcement of decayed chassis outriggers, but that'd probably be impractical in your application.

Use un-filled styrene resin (or even epoxy) to bond your patch to the steel. You might consider an aluminium plate or mesh to back the patch, whichever you can get to conform roughly to the (presumably curved) surface. I've also used polythene sheet on boats. Self-tapping screws or twisted wire (not copper)  to pull it flush until it sticks. I'd use an aluminium roofing nail in a Dremel, or similar, to clean up and rust-protect the inside of the steel around the hole.

If it isn't an MOT fail, a non-structural patch serves no practical purpose and may encourage more rust. Holes are natures way of giving you better access and ventilation.

You can remove some surface rust inside hollow sections with a bit of steel wire rope (SWR) in a drill chuck. It rattles around a lot. Make sure it cant escape cos it'll 'ave you. If you had heavy rust you might try barbed wire, which'd of course be more dangerous. Blow the rust-dust out with compressed air.

I havn't tried this, but its concievable you might be able to get some protective effect by splicing aluminium into the SWR, or using aluminium cable (welding and railway signal cable sometimes has an aluminium core cos its less attractive to thieves than copper). There's also heavy guage single-strand aluminium (I think) wire used here for bonsai.
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Father Tiresias
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PostSubject: Re: Help needed Sills Rust the Bangernomics way?   Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:18 pm

A stitch in time saves nine - do the job properly now and it will be far easier and cost less than if you wait for it to become a real problem.

Don't think you can fool an MoT inspector with a 'bodge' repair, they have seen them all and know exactly what the tell tale signs are!!
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edlithgow
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PostSubject: Re: Help needed Sills Rust the Bangernomics way?   Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:33 am

Father Tiresias wrote:
A stitch in time saves nine - do the job properly now and it will be far easier and cost less than if you wait for it to become a real problem.
I think that's open to question. As the OP suggests, there's no obvious reason to think welding up the sills will slow thier rate of corrosion, and it might well accelerate it, by reducing ventilation, limiting access, and burning off any remaining protective coating.

Depends what you mean by "do the job properly", of course, but unless things have changed a lot, acceptable welding standards for MOT repair are bloody awful, and, from what I've seen, very few repairers will do anything other than token rustproofing, so it starts rotting again immediately.  

Father Tiresias wrote:
Don't think you can fool an MoT inspector with a 'bodge' repair, they have seen them all and know exactly what the tell tale signs are!!
You can sometimes. If the MOT inspector follows the rules, he's limited to what he can see. That reinforced concrete outrigger repair of mine (which could fairly be described as a bodge, though it was pretty strong) was invisible unless you lifted the carpets. If he'd hit the outrigger VERY hard with a big hammer he might have broken the corroded steel (under the underseal) free of the concrete, but he wasn't allowed to do that, nor would he have had any particular reason to.

OTOH they don't always follow the rules.

My second car was a completely rotten 1800 Marina which should never have passed an MOT, but I was in the TA at the time and had access to gas welding gear.

Since I didn't really  know how to weld, I re-designed the rotted out chassis box section bottoms and outriggers to use continuous flange welds, which pretty much weld (and assemble) themselves.

I assume you're not prohibited from re-designing structure, or the inspector would have failed me, but he definately didn't like it, and spent quite a long time hitting it VERY hard with quite a big hammer.

I knew he wasn't supposed to do that, but I also knew the repair was much stronger than standard, so I let him get on with it. He got tired eventually.

Satisfying, but completely wasted on that car.

My impression is the OP doesn't think its an MOT fail, but wants to do a cosmetic repair. I'm suggesting she should concentrate on slowing the rust down, and do a structural repair when it becomes necessary.
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Father Tiresias
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PostSubject: Re: Help needed Sills Rust the Bangernomics way?   Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:49 pm

I don't know how long ago it was that you last experienced a UK MoT test, but it has changed MASSIVELY over the last few years. In certain areas it no longer matters if something is structural or not for it to generate a failure due to rust. For example, one of my Range Rovers failed its MoT on a hole in the lower wheel arch simply because it was within the prescribed distance from a suspension mounting point - despite the fact that the suspension is actually mounted to a separate chassis!! Repairs to an MoT standard now have to be of a very high quality and a simple bodge panel tacked over a hole will no longer suffice. Even a hole on a non-structural part can be a failure if it has sharp edges!!

Also consider the role of a sill in a side impact. It sits outboard of the chassis rails so the difference between a structurally sound sill and one bodged over could be the difference between life and death for a child in the car if hit in the side - what cost saving is that worth?

Spraying a sill inner with thinned down motor oil is a VERY temporary solution to rust proofing and will need replenishing regularly. Once a sill is repaired properly it isn't exactly a difficult task to spray a proper rust proofing compound inside it that will physically adhere to the inner surface of the sill and probably last for the remaining life of the vehicle.

I long ago realised that half baked repairs on a car are a false economy and only serve to come back and bite you in the bum later on. If a jobs worth doing its worth doing properly!

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edlithgow
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PostSubject: Re: Help needed Sills Rust the Bangernomics way?   Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:21 am

Father Tiresias wrote:

Also consider the role of a sill in a side impact.  It sits outboard of the chassis rails so the difference between a structurally sound sill and one bodged over could be the difference between life and death for a child in the car if hit in the side - what cost saving is that worth?
Dunno, not enough information.

Is it a hypothetical, nice, well behaved child, or a real one?

Is it a white child living in Beverly Hills, or a black child living in equatorial Africa?

I don't have children, and I avoid having them as passengers if at all possible, but even if that was not the case, I don't think the vanishingly small probability of some minor sill corrosion contributing to one's death would bother me much, especially if I drove a big chunky vehicle like a VW LT.

I assume the "correct" answer to your rhetorical, "when-did-you-stop-beating-your-wife" question is "without price" or something similar. Counsels of perfection make for easy debating points, but if you go that route you're on a quest for absolute safety, and you'd better stop driving. All cars are unsafe.

Father Tiresias wrote:

Spraying a sill inner with thinned down motor oil is a VERY temporary solution to rust proofing and will need replenishing regularly.  Once a sill is repaired properly it isn't exactly a difficult task to spray a proper rust proofing compound inside it that will physically adhere to the inner surface of the sill and probably last for the remaining life of the vehicle.
I find oil lasts pretty well. If you want thicker/stickier you can add or substitute vegetable oil. I find its better than Waxoyl, but there may be other "proper" compounds that are superior. I havn't tried Dinitrol, for example.

You seem to be connecting rust proofing with structural repair, but the two are independent. You can repair without rustproofing, and you can rust proof without repairing.

I'm suggesting that, IF this isn't an MOT fail, it doesn't need repairing. If it is an MOT fail, it really needs a structural repair. It needs rustproofing either way, and a cosmetic repair (bodge, if you like) is likely to be pointless or even harmful.

We seem to be in agreement on the last point, at least.

The OP could go for an MOT and see what they say, but I suppose there'll be one along soon enough anyway.
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edlithgow
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PostSubject: Re: Help needed Sills Rust the Bangernomics way?   Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:56 am

Father Tiresias wrote:
 For example, one of my Range Rovers failed its MoT on a hole in the lower wheel arch simply because it was within the prescribed distance from a suspension mounting point - despite the fact that the suspension is actually mounted to a separate chassis!!  
See, that's the kind of brain-disengaged, jobsworth nonsense that might bring the MOT into disrepute, and encourage one to do covert bodges, if one was so inclined.

Not that I would do such a thing, of course.  :whistle:
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PostSubject: Re: Help needed Sills Rust the Bangernomics way?   Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:01 am

edlithgow wrote:
Father Tiresias wrote:
 For example, one of my Range Rovers failed its MoT on a hole in the lower wheel arch simply because it was within the prescribed distance from a suspension mounting point - despite the fact that the suspension is actually mounted to a separate chassis!!  
See, that's the kind of brain-disengaged, jobsworth nonsense that might bring the MOT into disrepute, and encourage one to do covert bodges, if one was so inclined.

Not that I would do such a thing, of course.  :whistle:
Ludicrously the simple solution was to cut away the offending hole and taper the panel to make it look right.  No hole = no fail!!
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PostSubject: Re: Help needed Sills Rust the Bangernomics way?   Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:20 pm

Well Guys upon investigation I do think this area is just cosmetic and in the spirit of Bangernomics id like to do a neat rust free and safe patch Thumb 

The Sills seem very solid along the rest of their length all Ii really want to do is try and convert and stabilize the internal rust so it doesn't accelerate further so want to get something like a rust converter coating inside the hidden box section to convert surface rust to stop it progressing :Wky: The holes we are talking about when chased back to sound metal are no bigger than a Typical Dinotrol/Waxoil sized bung that fills the hole often drilled into box sections used to spray the product through.

Once the inside of the sills have been treated and well oiled these tiny holes will be filled with a tiny fibreglass patch  before filling,priming,por15 and topcoat :Wky: 

All of which I have already Thumb 

But yes MOT testing is a bit more thorough than it used to be but most of it is for our own safety though I must admit some of the newer clauses seem to be a bit daft......

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PostSubject: Re: Help needed Sills Rust the Bangernomics way?   Sat Sep 13, 2014 9:00 pm

Rather than get involved in some sort of pissing contest, I'll just chuck my tuppenneth-worth in:
Firstly, I'd cut the rust out and flush-weld a patch in. That's easy for me to say because I have all the gear but if you do the prep-work yourself, it should only cost you a few minutes labour at a indy garage. In fact, to do the pre-work for a proper repair, will take less time than cocking about with filler and bits of washing machine/bean cans.
I'd love to see this 'barbed wire' method......
Secondly, I wouldn't entertain spraying oil or diesel into enclosed sections. It may stop the corrosion but it makes any future repairs dangerous. It's also for that reason, that I won't weld any cars that look to have been treated as such. Spraying or bvrushing it on the exposed underside is fine as you can see when that catches fire and put it out with a wet rag, and it won't create a flammable gas in an enclosed space when warmed, just waiting for a spark.
Reference MoT repairs:
Using filler on structural panels is stupid. I can't think of any justifiable excuse to do it. If I suspected a vehicle of carrying ANY bodges, I would be going over it with a fine toothed comb. Common sense would be out of the window and I'd be looking for more bodges. If I thought there was filler in a 'prescribed area', I'd be knocking the crap out of it.

In short: do it right, do it once.
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PostSubject: Re: Help needed Sills Rust the Bangernomics way?   Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:28 pm

owelly wrote:
Secondly, I wouldn't entertain spraying oil or diesel into enclosed sections. It may stop the corrosion but it makes any future repairs dangerous. It's also for that reason, that I won't weld any cars that look to have been treated as such. Spraying or bvrushing it on the exposed underside is fine as you can see when that catches fire and put it out with a wet rag, and it won't create a flammable gas in an enclosed space when warmed, just waiting for a spark.

Interesting point. I wonder how the "official" rust-proofings like Waxoyl (I think its basically lanolin sheep-grease thinned with white spirit) and Dinitrol would do in such fire safety tests?

The white spirit probably won't hang around too long, but the lanolin is still going to be flammable, though probably not quite as flammable as motor oil. I dunno whats in Dinitrol but I'd bet it'll burn. Pretty much any hydrocarbon will release flammable gas if you heat it up with a welding torch.

I wouldn't assume that something is safe because its commercially available. Slightly off-topic, but I still find it astonishing that they can sell kits that inflate a flat tyre with butane
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