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 Can I turbo a car the bangernomics way?

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Joloke
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PostSubject: Can I turbo a car the bangernomics way?   Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:35 am

I luv my old normally aspirated Diesel Mercedes but in modern traffic its embarasing away from lights and hills are Slowwwww Sleep

In the states and germany in fact just about anywhere where the cars are left hand drive the model I have fitted with the legendary 5 cylinder Om602 lump are factory fitted with turbo's but I believe that the steering rack fouls where the turbo assembly would go on a right hand drive car :W:

Yes I could let the car go but I love it and its everything you could ever want from a Bangernomics car and id like to keep it long term.


A turbo would help it keep up with modern traffic Thumb

Question is has anybody ever done a turbo conversion on the cheap,ie Bangernomics way of thinking and budget?

I believe the factory turbo cars originally used a Garrett T1 turbo would I have to follow suit or could I use a salvaged turbo from another non Mercedes vehicle?

I know I need an oil feed for the turbo but would I necessarily need an intercooler?

I know I need to spool the turbo up with spent exhaust gasses but surely with a bit of ingenuity and you could move a turbo slightly higher from the factory position so it wouldn't foul the rack?

Here are a couple of pics of the Om602 both normally aspirated and turbo variants so you can see the difference :Wky:

Normally Aspirated

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Turbo Variant

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Any help and advice from anybody who has already done anything similar would be gratefully received cheers

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Last edited by Joloke on Tue Jun 04, 2013 2:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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edlithgow
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PostSubject: Re: Can I turbo a car the bangernomics way?   Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:04 pm

This probably isn'y helpful, but I'd say the inclusion of "turbo" (as a verb) and "the bangernomics way" is a bit of a military intelligence stylee oxymoron.

"The bangernomics way" is to leave it the **** alone.

I've got no experience of turbo's, other than as a spectator on various Daihatsu forums, which tend to dominated by turbo-boost obsessed "airheads", because the Charade has a wee engine, and production turbo versions exist.

These people break things.

A LOT.

An oldish (recently neglected, by your account) Merc may be tougher, but it isn't indestructible.

If you like it, learn to live with its characteristics. Its a luxo-barge, after all. Why would you even consider lowering yourself drag-duelling with chavs?



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Joloke
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PostSubject: Re: Can I turbo a car the bangernomics way?   Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:26 pm

Your right its not really helpful lm

If you read the post fully you will notice that Mercedes themselves fitted turbo's to these :W:

The only reason they were omitted here is Mercedes Benz in their wisdom as always over engineered the assembly but never took into account that the Right Hand Drive variants had the steering mechanism in the way :W:

I don't plan any Flames down the side or any Go faster stripes,turbos are there for more reasons than speed and assistance to climb steep inclines is one of them :W:

That's the only reason I am considering a turbo,I was really just looking for advice not criticism Headbang

If you Modify a vehicle to suit your needs rather than going to the expense or buying another second vehicles that does climb hills to my mind that is Bangernomics and if you do the conversion using salvaged and rebuilt parts that too is Bangernomics :Wky:

Also the Bangernomics way isn't always to leave things alone,in life we often waste money buying the next best thing because it does something you need it to do now that you didn't require a decade or two previously.

If you can adapt something to meet your needs rather than replace it then in my mind that is Bangernomics :FR:

To leave something alone so it becomes redundant or not able to meet the needs of the user is wasteful. Maybe I should just throw the car away and buy another??????

Hopefully somebody will be along soon with some constructive advice??????????


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MilfordHaven
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PostSubject: Re: Can I turbo a car the bangernomics way?   Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:59 pm

I'm afraid I have to disagree with edlithgow Bangernomics has come a long way over the years and things have changed quite a lot, what we once seen as Bangernomics is not what it maybe today? that doesn't meant that the old way is gone or that the new way is any better or worse. From time to time we all come across cars that we really like and want to hang onto them for as long as possible and I'm no exception to the rule, you only have to look at this page to see that [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and indeed some of these cars are classics which I don't see the founder of this forum criticizing in anyway in fact here is a caption from the main site written by James

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For me I would say if you have found a car that you especially like and its not going to cost the earth to improve it then why not? I's not about Chavs or anything else which by the way I think is a very narrow minded way of looking at it, its about the individual and their interpretation of Bangernomics for them and we all have different views/ideas about that.
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beefybake
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PostSubject: Re: Can I turbo a car the bangernomics way?   Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:13 pm

Some good points here raised by Milford, I too agree that Bangernomics has changed over recent years and that's because it has had to, the idea of buying a car for a few hundred pounds and then scrapping it I believe still exists but perhaps in a different way, there is nothing wrong nowadays with buying a bargain car and making it last as long as you can so long as it doesn't cost you an arm and a leg. Think about it this way if I buy several cars over several years which perhaps may have cost me £1000 or I may have bought one which cost me £1000 which I am well happy with and see this car lasting me say 10 years which is the better? Its not rocket science but the latter is the better buy all round and its also going to be better for me because I will get use to the car and its quirks and and in the long run I will save a lot of hard earned cash which is real Bangernomics Good post
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MilfordHaven
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PostSubject: Re: Can I turbo a car the bangernomics way?   Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:53 pm

It's good to see others have a view on this, sorry if I have gone off topic admin Embarassed
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stereosound
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PostSubject: Re: Can I turbo a car the bangernomics way?   Tue Jun 04, 2013 2:35 pm

MilfordHaven wrote:
It's good to see others have a view on this, sorry if I have gone off topic admin Embarassed

Not at all its good to see that Bangernomics as ive always thought means different things to different People Very Happy

My personal Approach to Bangernomics is get the maximum amount of life out of a vehicle or any item for that matter and if you can adapt it to your own personal needs to prolong its life,all the better Clap


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MilfordHaven
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PostSubject: Re: Can I turbo a car the bangernomics way?   Tue Jun 04, 2013 3:10 pm

I think that some of us do think the way we all use to but I think and agree that Bangernomics has moved on with the time and the cost so Bangernomics is different to all of us and lets not forget we all have different budgets too.
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Ant
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PostSubject: Re: Can I turbo a car the bangernomics way?   Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:19 pm

Not sure if its possible to convert it to turbo at a Bangernomics price but good luck and keep us updated.
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edlithgow
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PostSubject: Re: Can I turbo a car the bangernomics way?   Sat Jun 08, 2013 7:52 am

Joloke wrote:
Your right its not really helpful lm

If you read the post fully you will notice that Mercedes themselves fitted turbo's to these :W:

The only reason they were omitted here is Mercedes Benz in their wisdom as always over engineered the assembly but never took into account that the Right Hand Drive variants had the steering mechanism in the way :W:


You think? I'd guess they did take it into account, decided it'd be too much trouble and expense to produce a turbo for the relatively small UK (and I suppose, Japanese) market, and that's why there apparently isn't one.

If you want to second-guess the Germans and produce a one-off turbo version, I'm almost sure it can be done, but I'm also almost sure it wont be cheap.

I couldn't do it here because I've never learned the Chinese for "Can you fabricate a custom exhaust manifold for my Mercede$$$$$$$$$$" -something wrong with my ? key

So I take "this probably isn'y helpful" back. Don't do it is, IMO, the most helpful advice available on this topic, and I don't see anyone else offering you specific alternatives.

IF you're dead set on persuing this for the fun of it, regardless of expense, then fair enough.

It might be that you could get around the space constraints more easily using a supercharger, which wouldn't need to be in the exhaust path. I think I've heard of the one in the new mini being used in similar applications.

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Father Tiresias
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PostSubject: Re: Can I turbo a car the bangernomics way?   Sat Jun 08, 2013 8:29 am

It is possible to do a turbo conversion on a budget (the easiest way is to buy a rusted/damaged/MoT failure and swap the mechanics over) but mixing and matching parts from different vehicles rarely works out well. Firstly, understanding compressor maps and how a turbo works is a good start. Have a look at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and read carefully. Secondly, even if you found a turbocharger that was vaguely suitable and could be mounted to your existing manifolds you then need to consider the diesel injection pump. A pump from a naturally aspirated diesel is lacking in a critical component that is found on most turbocharged engines pumps, a boost controlled advance mechanism. To get the correct fuelling at the correct time the pump needs to know the level of boost applied by the turbo. The pump calibration will also need changing to suit the different fuelling requirments. Again, the best option is to find the correct pump for a turbocharged version of your engine.

Then we have the engine internals: A diesel is already high compression, can it cope with the additional boost that will cause an increase cylinder pressures? Maybe, maybe not. Unfortunately if the answer is maybe not it could result in a loud and expensive bang!!

Unless you have a very thorough understanding of turbocharger technology and the component designs and limitations of your engine, bolting a turbo on and hoping for thebest is probably not the way to go!!
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edlithgow
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PostSubject: Re: Can I turbo a car the bangernomics way?   Sun Jun 09, 2013 3:30 am

Father Tiresias wrote:
Unless you have a very thorough understanding of turbocharger technology and the component designs and limitations of your engine, bolting a turbo on and hoping for thebest is probably not the way to go!!

To be fair, that's not exactly what the OP was proposing. As I understand it, the kosher bits exist (oops! kultur klange. Don't mention ze vor...etc) but they don't fit, because the UK very sensibly drives on the optimal side of the road for Japanese grey market imports.

Turbos and Kompressors aside, there are claims of up to 30% power increase from LPG "fumigation". There's a bit of a whiff of snake oil about these, because you'd expect maximum power output to be limited by the available oxygen, which of course is the limitation addressed by turbos/superchargers.

If there's anything in it, the gains (fuel efficiency if not maxpower) are probably based on the greater ignitability of the gas promoting the more efficient combustion of the diesel, which, judging by the soot diesels tend to produce, is often incomplete. This is also the basis for the more reasonable/modest of the claims made for HHO systems, (though there's no shortage of utter bullshit about those) and I have seen some apparently valid scientific studies supporting small gains of the order of 10%

This is something you could probably get a feel for by just plonking a propane cylinder in your passenger footwell and bleeding some gas into the air intake, though if it seemed potentially useful you'd probably have to get a pro system installed, after seeing it convincingly demonstrated.

You might also get small gains from water injection, and I've wondered about adding hydrogen peroxide to the water, though I've seen very little published about that, probably for good reason.

And of course there are nitro kits, which might be useful if you didn't need the extra power very often. Seen them for about 500 quid, but I'd guess the running costs would be pretty high.

While typing this I wondered about adding an oxidant to the diesel fuel. Nitromethane, as used in model aircraft and drag racing would be an obvious choice, though I dunno about price or availability in the Yook. Sounds expensive and risky. Havn’t researched it, but the idea seems to get the redneck trucker endorsement here, which is almost as bad as being voted “cool” by bikers.

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These kind of “alternative” ideas are attractive to me personally because they are within the scope of half-assed cheap improvisation, (and are therefore, I’d argue, bangernomic, though that doesn’t matter). This contrasts with a turbo conversion, which, as Father Tireseas points out, really needs to be done right.

I doubt I’d try them with a fairly shiny Merc though. Before leaving for Taiwan I had a 40 quid diesel Maestro that I bought for illegally running on kerosene, without realizing The Man had banned the bulk sale of kerosene a couple of months previously (The pumps were still there, but they didn’t deliver.) Really liked it, and it’d be perfect for this kind of thing, but my brother scrapped it a long time ago.
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edlithgow
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PostSubject: Re: Can I turbo a car the bangernomics way?   Wed Apr 23, 2014 12:40 am

These Australians seem fairly convinced by mixing in LPG.

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No real explanation of where the extra power is coming from (i.e. why isn't it limited by the available oxygen, which won't change, as mentioned above) but I've read somwhere else that the revs go up quite a lot (dunno why) which'd perhaps increase the power output.

Not a very bangernomic price tag, but if the kit was transferrable between cars (with re-tuning/remapping) it might be bangernomic long term.
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Ant
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PostSubject: Re: Can I turbo a car the bangernomics way?   Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:42 am

Did you add a turbo to you Merc?
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PostSubject: Re: Can I turbo a car the bangernomics way?   Sun Jun 08, 2014 12:13 pm

I've done a few turbo conversions on dervs and had no troubles. The first was fitting a turbo to an old non-TD Fiesta. The second (IIRC) was plonking a turbo on an old Passat and the latest would be the Mk2 Transit.
Diesels are a lot easier to do than petrol engines (but I've done a couple of those too). Chosing a donor that has the same engine as yours will be a good start but as you say the MB turbo won't fit, you'll have to use a different approach.
What I did can be simplified to suit most budget conversions so I'll try to touch on the points you need to cover:
1. Find a turbo! I chose a donor vehicle with a similar sized engine.
2. The location of the turbo needs to be high enough to allow the oil to drain back into the sump. I've used the dipstick hole for an oil return in the past...
3. The location also needs allow the hot exhaust gasses to get in (through an air filter first) and out of the turbo, and likewise, the air has to get in and out. It's preferable to have the charged air trundle through an intercooler before it gets to the inlet manifold.
4. You need to find an oil feed. This can be taken from an oil gallery, oil pressure switch take-off (if it's large enough) or a sandwich plate behind the oil filter.
5. Consider what other components are sited around where you want to fit the turbo. Turbos get very hot! and you don't want to be removing the turbo to get to the dipstick or change the oil filter!

Once you've looked at the above points and you think the project is a go-er, find a good turbo. Try to find something that has a proven record and is popular. Try to get the flanges off the donor car too and as much of the pipework as you can. Plumbing it in depends on your own fabrication skills. On the vehicles I've converted, I've made adaptors to bolt to the exhaust manifold. The casings on turbos can often be loosened and turned to ensure the oil feed and returns, and the compressor/volute casings are correctly orientated.
The rest is just a case of basic fabrication and the use of large-bore tubing and good quality worm-drive clips!!
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edlithgow
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PostSubject: Re: Can I turbo a car the bangernomics way?   Sun Jan 24, 2016 12:44 am

edlithgow wrote:
These Australians seem fairly convinced by mixing in LPG.

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No real explanation of where the extra power is coming from (i.e. why isn't it limited by the available oxygen, which won't change, as mentioned above) but I've read somwhere else that the revs go up quite a lot (dunno why) which'd perhaps increase the power output.

Not a very bangernomic price tag, but if the kit was transferrable between cars (with re-tuning/remapping) it might be bangernomic long term.

Explained by an Australian here:

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PostSubject: Re: Can I turbo a car the bangernomics way?   Mon Jan 25, 2016 1:12 am

My CrapOldCarina is relatively slow, but is saved from ignominy by simply hoofing it along as much as possible and keeping the speed up around the bends, surprising several over the years.
Anyway, I seriously thought about a retro-turbo fit, as the next gen Carina had a turbo on it, and I looked at a swap of bits. I cba in the end, because it's like a snake pit at the back of the engine already and a turbo would have been really problematic for location.
I also gave serious consideration to fitting an Eaton M45 Mini Cooper supercharger, which I bought about ten years ago for another project, and which sits winking at me from a shelf. Again, space was the factor, so I decided to just live with the available power.

If the engine was longitudinal instead of transverse, I'd have done it, no problem. My thinking was along the lines of low-blow - boosting by a mere 2 or 3psi to avoid any long-term reliability problems and give a worthwhile gain. Not tyre-squealing, just a bit of extra poke on long uphills, where it's sometimes needed, especially when loaded up.
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edlithgow
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PostSubject: Re: Can I turbo a car the bangernomics way?   Sun Mar 27, 2016 2:15 am

I've seen "giant" novelty disposable cigarette lighters here (can't remember exactly where, and if I was actually looking for them I probably wouldn't be able to find one, but they were fairly common).

Think I might have seen them in the Yook too.

Dunno how much they were, but its the sort of thing the Pound Shop might carry, which can't be said for a Mini Cooper supercharger.

Quite a lot easier to fit too Smile

If I had an old NA diesel that was underpowered (very unlikely here, where diesels offer negligable advantage, and the only likely candidate, a Delica 4X4 van, is turbo'd anyway and too fragile to mess with) I'd definitely give that a go.
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edlithgow
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PostSubject: Re: Can I turbo a car the bangernomics way?   Mon Mar 28, 2016 7:14 am

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$10.99!! Maybe not Pound Shop then.

Think they were a lot cheaper here, but that one apparently has an LED light (what for?) which wouldn't be required. You wouldn't need or want any ignition gear either, so flint models would be OK.

At that price a wee cheapo blow torch might be a better buy, assuming you could hook a tube to it without breaking it. It wouldn't have a push-release valve though, which I was thinking of as a safety feature.

I'm hoping to get around to trying this as a choke / idle circuit substitute, in which application the standard lighters (perhaps in tandem) might be adequate for small engines.
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